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 I'm afraid I've gotten into another spat, this time with Wendwriter, flamer of note on ff.net. I'm posting the embarrassing exchange here in the event of her using her edit powers on both her Live Journal and her ff.net forum. Her idea of what constitutes 'offensive' and 'adult' content in forum posts is rather odd, but bear in mind, this is a woman who once reported an author for using the curse words damn, hell, and bloody in a T rated story. Her entry is linked below, followed by my response.

Shades of Grey

Update October 6, 2007: Since Wendwriter has since edited a number of her posts and deleted one of mine, thus making herself look much better, I feel justified in posting the original version of her Shades of Grey post, lest anyone wonder what had me so up in arms. The original paragraph, now deleted, is as follows:

Had a bit of a barney on my forum. It started on Saturday night, when one contributor decided to push the boundaries. I don't like adult content being posted there because there are Christians and kids there, and I don't want to exclude anyone by putting them off because of content that makes them uncomfortable. Imagine you go to a wine bar after work every day to unwind. You sit down for a drink, and there is a piano player playing nice, easy-listening classical music and perhaps a bit of jazz. Anyway, a new owner comes and takes over the place. Next time you come in for your glass of wine, cup of tea or whatever, there's a stripper writhing round a pole. You're a girl. do you stay or do you find another place to relax? Well, the contributor wanted to start an argument - a nice, intellectual argument - about rape in fanfiction. I believe that rape is not a fit subject for entertainment, so if you're going to write it, then for Heaven's sake you'd better know what you are dealing with, or you could end up offending somebody. I told him so, and reminded him that I would very much prefer not to discuss such a sensitive subject on the forum. Like that made any difference. His friend then waded in, and hijacked the forum to promote her own ideas. Was annoyed, but had church the next day - in Birmingham. While I was there, I saw a girl I knew from way back. She was fine around women, but was nervous around men. I knew she had been raped because she told me so, around fifteen years ago soon after it had happened. Fifteen years later, it was still affecting her. When I got home, the first offender was back, merrily splitting hairs with his friend, as if I didn't exist. I told them about R- and what I had seen, and the second offender said, "Rape is murder of the soul, but..." and went on to detail the various shades of grey that should be taken into consideration. I told her that I was upset about my friend, but she was not interested. Another contributor waded in with a comment about a WW2 soldier who had been told to "Just snap out of it." She was annoyed because that could not happen in real life, with the effect of curing the soldier. I told her that if I had heard anyone telling R- to just snap out of it, they would have gone home in an ambulance, courtesy of *me.* She said "Hear, hear," and I thought that was the end of it. Went to bed in a foul mood, and didn't sleep well. The next day, when I go tback from work, the first offender had the temerity to ask if he had thrown a grenade into the forum sans pin. I told him that "someone" had nearly been blocked for offensive comments, and that they had better stop or "Aunt Wendy will get out the chainsaw and start pruning." The friendly one calmed things down, and that was the end of that. I am heartily sick of flippin' Fred and Rose West attempting to corrupt my forum. Will formally warn them if they do it again. Am still annoyed about the "murder of the soul" comment. My friend is not a flippin' zombie! That girl - she's so cold inside I swear she has a personality disorder. How can she have no compassion for someone who is suffering? She doesn't get it at all! End of original paragraph.

My response:

Had a bit of a barney on my forum. It started on Saturday night, when one contributor decided to push the boundaries. I don't like adult content being posted there because there are Christians and kids there, and I don't want to exclude anyone by putting them off because of content that makes them uncomfortable.

If you are going to post this, I would appreciate your getting the details correct. The discussion about the exploitation of certain sensitive subjects began on Saturday night, September 22, between you and Sugarfaerie. You will see no forum posts dated September 22 from me.

Well, the contributor wanted to start an argument - a nice, intellectual argument - about rape in fanfiction. I believe that rape is not a fit subject for entertainment, so if you're going to write it, then for Heaven's sake you'd better know what you are dealing with, or you could end up offending somebody. I told him so, and reminded him that I would very much prefer not to discuss such a sensitive subject on the forum.

Did you now? I fear I failed to see where you told me that such a discussion was off limits on your forum in that response. Your bringing up the subject in the first place, in your post on the 'classic revenge fic' several days previous had led me to believe otherwise so long as no graphic details were included. However, I did make a post in response to your discussion with Sugarfaerie the previous evening. You will see that post is dated September 23 (Sunday).

When I got home, the first offender was back, merrily splitting hairs with his friend, as if I didn't exist.

Now, that is simply not true. I had 'skipped merrily off' to care for an aged parent and did not come back online for the rest of that day. You will see no further posts dated September 23 from me. Perhaps you have me confused with another person?

The next day, when I go tback from work, the first offender had the temerity to ask if he had thrown a grenade into the forum sans pin. I told him that "someone" had nearly been blocked for offensive comments, and that they had better stop or "Aunt Wendy will get out the chainsaw and start pruning."

And for that, I crave your pardon. I had opened my email alerts on Monday morning, seen the spirited discussion that took place on the previous day, and I responded to your statement, 'Have I started a debate here?' which indicated to me that further debate would not be amiss. It seems I was in error. Alas, I responded to the email version and missed your edit about your friend.

And that post, dated September 24 (Monday) was and will be my final post in your forum. You invited me in, and you showed me the door, as is your right. It is also your right to portray yourself as the beleagured heroine in all of this (as seems to be the general theme in your Live Journal to date) but kindly do report the facts correctly.

I must say, I was rather taken aback by the tone of your reply to what I had thought was a reasonably courteous post, far warmer than the reviews you leave your teenage author victims, but I held my peace and withdrew the field, with no further comment. Until now.

Had an e-barney with a writer who had left a post in a thread she started on my forum offering beta services. To do something like that, you'd better be pretty damn good. Well, I looked at her stories, and "insulted her person" by slagging them off. Heh! Told her that if she had demonstrated a good grasp of the English language, would not have whacked her.

Well, I deem that taught her a sorely needed lesson about attempting to do something misguidedly generous. Anything less than utter perfection is unacceptable, and the sooner these young writers learn that, the better! I also noticed you flamed her twice and reported one of her stories for her trouble. I think your unfortunate behavior in this would have sped me away from your forum if the above incident had not.

I shall also be posting this reply on my Live Journal, to preserve the record should 'Aunt Wendy' decide to 'get out the chainsaw and start pruning.'


Link to my offensive forum posts that is, for as long as she keeps them. I do have hard copy in case I, or anyone else, am edited to look like a fool.

Update October 6, 2007: Since the forum posts in question have been severely edited, I also feel justified in posting the originals here to show what, exactly, Wendwriter has characterized as 'offensive adult' material unsuitable for the teenage members of the forum. They are as follows, and I apologise for the length. (quotes from preceeding posts are in italics):

Thranduil Oropherion Redux: Thank you! Grrr... don't get me started on unrealistic portrayals of sensitive issues. There are some subjects that are really not fit for use as entertainment.

Er, would you say the same thing about a novelist like William Faulkner, whose 'Sanctuary' portrays a 'not terribly PC' view of rape and its aftermath?

In truth, I do not think that there is a One True way to respond to any kind of trauma, and such things are not meant to be 'entertaining' but, rather, thought provoking.

I agree that it becomes annoying when senstive issues such as rape, abuse, and cutting are used clumsily as a quick and dirty shortcut to sympathy for one's character.
What annoys you the most: fanbrats writing rubbish or mediocre writers who have no real desire to improve?
Oh, the latter, without a doubt!
#62 Sept 23 9:20 AM edited Sept 23 9:21 AM


Wendwriter: I haven't read Faulkner, but if he wrote something that offended me I would either not buy his work or write to the publishers to complain. Political correctness is just as outrageous as deliberately offensive stuff because people get patronised and second guessed - and usually without being consulted. I mean, how many accounts have you heard of the word "Christmas" being banned from city or county council memos or official documents in case "ethnic minorities" get offended? None of my Muslim, Sikh or any other friends get offended by the mention of the word, and none of them have ever been consulted about it. I know this because I asked them about it. I personally believe that the PC movement has been subverted in some ways to become a sort of covert expression of racist and discriminatory attitudes.

Have I started a debate here?

In truth, I do not think that there is a One True way to respond to any kind of trauma, and such things are not meant to be 'entertaining' but, rather, thought provoking.

I agree that there is NO "one true way" to respond to trauma - can give you some fascinating accounts of vegetarians going off and eating beefburgers (verifiable) after being caught up in a terrorist incident, and stuff like that. However, there is a difference between writing a story in which you are exploring the human psyche in relation to a particular incident, and simply using a traumatic incident gratutitously to drum up publicity. I HATE exploitation, and am very protective of my friends. Now I don't run around trying to ban stuff I think might offend them, but if I see someone writing stuff in which the truth is not being told about such an incident, I get annoyed, because I know what the truth is. There are enough variations in the true accounts I have heard personally to prevent any idea of stereotyping victims, but I will NOT stand by and let some dingbat make some kind of cheap thrill tale of that kind of thing. Since you evidently respect Faulkner, I'm sure he is not the kind of writer I would flame for such a thing.

If anyone elects to write about a sensitive subject, whether they are popular and respected or not, they need to know what they are on about. If they don't, they need to do some research. If they won't, and I see it here, I will flame it into the floor. And I am every bit as entitled to flame these people as others are to defend their "right to free speech." After all, do I not also have the right to freedom of speech? There was I thinking that I did...

Put it this way: I don't agree that it was right to shoot Larry Flynt, but I don't approve of the products he sells either. I simply don't buy them.

Pardon me for ranting: just met up with one of those friends today. She seems happy enough, but when I got talking to her, the trauma was still affecting her. In a room full of people of both genders, she would only talk to females. If a man came towards her, she would walk away and join or stand near to a group of women. I hate to think what I would do if I ever met up with her attacker. I would most likely rip his ugly, stupid head right off and stick it on a pole outside my house with a notice underneath: "Death to all rapists!!"

Sept 23 2:00 PM Edited Sept 23 2:09 PM


There follows a series of posts by other forum members, including Aislynn Crowdaughter, Redneck and Sugarfaerie, some of which Aislynn has been kind enough to reproduce below, in which, not surprisingly, they respond to her 'Have I started a debate here?' statement and debate. I do not rejoin the discussion until Monday morning, with this post:

Thranduil Oropherion Redux: Oh dear -- did Thranny pull the pin on a grenade and skip off merrily for a day? LOL

I haven't read Faulkner, but if he wrote something that offended me I would either not buy his work or write to the publishers to complain.

He is a respected American writer of the Southern Gothic genre. I oft tend to get him mixed up with Tennessee Williams. Both are well worth reading.

Er, you would complain to his publishers for having the temerity to publish a book that offended you? Would that not then have a chilling effect on authors being willing to take such risks, for they will have a harder time finding an outlet?

Since you evidently respect Faulkner, I'm sure he is not the kind of writer I would flame for such a thing.

It is not I who respect him so much as the judges at Nobel and Pulitzer. He won both prizes, among others.

I mean, how many accounts have you heard of the word "Christmas" being banned from city or county council memos or official documents in case "ethnic minorities" get offended?

In my land, we have this thing called the Establishment Clause in the First Amendment to our Constitution, which requires strict government neutrality on religious issues, so it is a matter of civil rights rather than personal offense. Being not a Christian myself, the word 'Christmas' does not offend me, but the blythe assumption that everyone who 'counts' celebrates it and the rest must take a back seat, does.

I agree that there is NO "one true way" to respond to trauma - can give you some fascinating accounts of vegetarians going off and eating beefburgers (verifiable) after being caught up in a terrorist incident, and stuff like that. However, there is a difference between writing a story in which you are exploring the human psyche in relation to a particular incident, and simply using a traumatic incident gratutitously to drum up publicity.

But who can presume to know a writer's motives for doing such a thing? And if their idea of what might constitute reasonable behavior under trying circumstances differs from your own experience, does it necessarily mean they haven't done their research? I once read a novel by Naomi Ragan (The Sacrifice of Tamar) about an Orthodox Jewish woman who is raped and, out of shame, keeps the secret for twenty-five years without showing any outward signs of trauma. She even makes love to her husband that very night, which I'm sure you might find unrealistic, but the author gives a believable basis for her doing so. *shrug*
Sept 24 1:17 PM edited 1:22 PM


Wendwriter: Yes, mate, you pulled the flippin' pin and skipped merrily off. Erm, can get a bit sensitive on this stuff because of the multiple cases where I have personally known the victims, and to be honest I resent the implication that I'm thick and can't tell the difference between a gratutitously offensive p o r n o story and literature. Though I am sure it is not what you meant. To make matters worse, I went away for the day yesterday, and met a friend who had suffered rape. She was practically climbing the walls every time a man came near her. The event was fifteen years ago. Trying to bat off a discussion I didn't want to deal with while seething on her behalf is not an experience I wish to repeat. 'Twas brutally insensitive, and someone nearly got banned. I was so flippin' angry! I was wound up all night and couldn't sleep. I mean sheesh! How does *anyone* know that R- isn't me? This is the internet, people!! Okay, so it's not, but I don't want to get into that discussion again. If you guys want to blur distinctions and split hairs, go create your own forum.

Have read Tennesse Williams - we did Cat on a Hot Tin Roof in college for A levels. He was something of a misanthropist, but the way he was treated by certain people, I can understand why. His portrayals of the trauma of abuse and its effect on those caught up in it - was particularly grossed out by Big Daddy's account of a trip to Marrakesh (if memory serves - it was somewhere in North Africa), in which he relates the ubiquity of a certain practice...

Er, you would complain to his publishers for having the temerity to publish a book that offended you? Would that not then have a chilling effect on authors being willing to take such risks, for they will have a harder time finding an outlet?

Well boo flippin' hoo! Let them go to Larry Flynt and ask him to publish their stuff. Personally, I don't give a rat's tail about some prat who cares nothing for the sensitivity required to write about this subject, and I don't care what anyone says about my attitude. Will delete posts that continue in a vein I would rather not discuss, and I mean it.

I once read a novel by Naomi Ragan (The Sacrifice of Tamar) about an Orthodox Jewish woman who is raped and, out of shame, keeps the secret for twenty-five years without showing any outward signs of trauma. She even makes love to her husband that very night, which I'm sure you might find unrealistic, but the author gives a believable basis for her doing so. *shrug*

Saw a similar scene acted out in "Highlander." That's not unusual. The idea that the poor victim couldn't say anything about her soul having been murdered - read earlier posts - boils my blood. do you know that, back in the day, women were expected to commit suicide like Lucrece if they were raped? Why not knife the creep responsible???!!

Right, now pretty please let's drop the subject before Aunty Wendy gets the chainsaw out and starts pruning!
Sept 24 1:46 PM edited 1:49 PM


Whereupon, the subject was dropped until brought up again in Wendwriter's Live Journal two days later.
 
 

Comments

( 17 comments — Leave a comment )
ignoblebard
Sep. 29th, 2007 07:58 am (UTC)
Well, you know my opinion of people whose only purpose in fandom is to put other people down. And it's just as bad to want to censor what subjects other people can write about, which seems to be what she's saying here. I know you've been trying to be the voice of reason on that forum but she's not willing to listen to reason.
randy_o
Sep. 29th, 2007 06:30 pm (UTC)
Thank you, Bard. I have no excuse for thinking I could be a voice of reason -- someone warned me plainly that Wendwriter 'had a screw loose,' but I failed to heed. Live and learn . . .
crowdaughter
Sep. 29th, 2007 12:03 pm (UTC)
I've just seen that post, and your reply. I have added a reply of my own, although I am not sure if and how long it will stay there.

I have to say you were remarkably calm, though, which I fear I was not, this time.

Oh, well. So much for my attempt to calm things down. But then, being dubbed "Rose West", and having a personality disorder, is not exactly what I think a lovely attitude of a welcoming host. So, I fear I will be out of Wendy's forum for good, now, too. Which means she can go on and bash Sue writers and harass them into taking their stories down unchallenged and in peace, again. Oh, well.

Aislynn
randy_o
Sep. 29th, 2007 07:11 pm (UTC)
Fred and Rose, WTF?
I have to say you were remarkably calm, though, which I fear I was not, this time.

If I was calm then, I am most certainly not now, for I have just Googled 'Fred and Rose West,' whom I had not previously heard of and had presumed to be a TV couple like unto the Bickersons, or Nick and Nora Charles -- one supporting the other in conversation.

Charming! So now I am likened to a serial rapist/murderer for the crime of referring to a book by Faulkner? Thank Elbereth that, out of respect for the 'children and Christians' on the forum, I did not mention the corncob!

And you have a 'personality disorder' for the 'brutal insensitivity' of describing rape as a 'soul-killing' crime. How that failed to show sympathy for Wendwriter's friend is beyond me. But see above my comment about 'screw loose' to Master Bard.

For the record, had Wendy ever outright forbade the discussion of rape (absent graphic details, of course) in her forum? So far I had only seen her policy against curse words and some vague references to being uncomfortable with 'abuse' on behalf of her friends, while feeling free enough to disparage stories of that type herself. Maiafay, in her own defense earlier in the thread, surely discussed the issue of non-con quite freely and in greater detail than either of us did.

Well, no matter. I thought your response was admirably calm as well, given the circumstances.
crowdaughter
Sep. 29th, 2007 07:35 pm (UTC)
Re: Fred and Rose, WTF?
For the record, had Wendy ever outright forbade the discussion of rape (absent graphic details, of course) in her forum?

She did not, but she asked me in PM several weeks ago not to discuss slash and adult themes too openly on the forum. That was directly after she invited me in and I warned her that I am a slash writer and a writer of darkfic, and if she would be comfortable with me joining in that regard. She said she was but asked me to mind the children participating. So, I did not discuss slash topics in detail, and rarely brought them up myself, but I did not see any harm in mentioning them and discussing them without graphical references. I also asked her in PM if I could recommend an AU story I adore on her Roll of Honor thread, a story that is rated M. She asked me not to, and so I did not.

So, I would not have made that comment about rape, had Wendy (and afterwards, Mayafay) not brought up the topic, first. After they did, I saw no reason not to comment or to restrain myself from discussing Wendy's statement about what was fitting to be touched on in fanfic or not; I was not aware that my post was offending to her, and that it came over as insensible in regard to her friend. Oh, well. *That* is the one part of all this I am sorry about. I should have told her that I am sorry about the fate of her friend and troubled by it (which I am indeed). I do not know if it had changed anything, though.
crowdaughter
Sep. 29th, 2007 08:49 pm (UTC)
Re: Fred and Rose, WTF?
EDIT: Wendy just apologized to me for her hurtful comments. She has taken the offensive comments down on her lj, too, and I see she apologized to you, too. Fair enough.

However, I will still not be back at her forum.
randy_o
Sep. 29th, 2007 10:28 pm (UTC)
Erm. I have responded to her comments on my not having respect for the TOS, but I have yet to accept the apology. Perhaps in a few days when I have subsided a bit. Putting something down the History Chute does not mend all.

She is setting up a special thread -- The Dumpster -- where you and I may speak of slash and other naughty stuff without damaging the Christians and the kiddies, but I am disinclined to enter it.
crowdaughter
Sep. 29th, 2007 10:45 pm (UTC)
She is setting up a special thread -- The Dumpster -- where you and I may speak of slash and other naughty stuff without damaging the Christians and the kiddies, but I am disinclined to enter it.

Oh, great! Well, I am sure Maiafay will appreciate it. I, however, have already told Wendy that I will not return, since I am bound to get in a row with her again sooner or later.

I have read your reply at Wendy's live journal, and thought it to the point. However, I do hope you will not really take down your stories! Following the TOS can be seriously overrated, IMHO.
randy_o
Oct. 6th, 2007 08:09 pm (UTC)
Re: Fred and Rose, WTF?
I doubt either of us will be back at her fora (the new one, by the way, has been named The X-Box instead of The Dumpster) since as of yesterday, I have discovered myself to be blocked from PMs and from both fora. I daresay you have been blocked as well, and I must say, that is one way of ensuring she has the last word. All because we declined to eat her proffered portion of Humble Pie.

I have updated my original post above, and I am seriously considering friending Mistress Wendy so that she may read and comment here, should she have the courage to do so. If you would like to have your comments screened, please let me know. I shall not take this step without your permission.
crowdaughter
Oct. 6th, 2007 09:02 pm (UTC)
Re: Fred and Rose, WTF?
You may of course friend her, and there is no need to screen any of the comments I made here. I can stand by all of them. However, the problem with your quoting of the original forum posts is that they leave out the "Rape- true rape - is murder of the soul" post I made. If I have understood anything of this whole debate with Wendy so far, then apparently that was the post that riled her up even more than anything you said, and I fear when she came down on you like a ton of bricks after your second post, the person she meant with "someone nearly get banned" was in fact me. I did not fully realize that at the time, nor did I realize that I had offended her at all, or I would of course have stopped the debate much sooner. The problem is, Wendy did not tell me or the forum to close debate immediately; apparently she expected that everyone would get that him- or herself.

And that is what riles her up so much: I didn't. I may be thick, but I fear on the internet, sometimes people need to spell out for me what they really want very clearly and slowly. That is why she attested me the brutal-insensitivity personality disorder.

So, I fear I am as much responsible for this as you, or more, and you got a good portion of the wrath that was really directed at me. For which I am sorry.

Anyway. Go ahead. I was quite riled up that in the end, Wendy's apology and invitation to her new forum turned out to be nothing but a lure so she could try to get in some more insults, and show off her 'chainsaw' some more. I just fear that the debate is futile, since Wendy apparently has made up her mind that we are both just out to corrupt her forum with naughty themes, and have been so from the start. Well, I wasn't. But that is beside the point, now.

Aislynn
randy_o
Oct. 6th, 2007 09:54 pm (UTC)
Re: Fred and Rose, WTF?
You may of course friend her, and there is no need to screen any of the comments I made here. I can stand by all of them. However, the problem with your quoting of the original forum posts is that they leave out the "Rape- true rape - is murder of the soul" post I made.

If you are a mind to post that one here for all to see, I would appreciate that. I do not have that post saved, and of course it has now fallen prey to the chainsaw. And then any readers can judge for themselves just who engaged in 'adult' conversation in front of the kiddies. Interesting, also, that she referes to rape as 'soul-murder' herself in het latter post, then turning around and citing it as evidence of your 'insensitivity.' (Which of course it was not.)

the person she meant with "someone nearly get banned" was in fact me. I did not fully realize that at the time,

Nor did I, frankly. But as you can see above, she doles out enough blame on me for daring to raise the subject and say the word in the first place, referring to me as 'the first offender' and deluding herself into thinking I had been chatting informally with you that afternoon about it, when in turht I only made one post on Sunday and one on Monday. I fear she had me confused with Redneck, who seems also to have been blocked for posting a Rush Limbaugh quote in another thread.

I may be thick, but I fear on the internet, sometimes people need to spell out for me what they really want very clearly and slowly.

I fear the internet makes autistics of us all -- we are unable to see body language or hear tone of voice in written communications. However, I have become rather adept at reading in between lines, and I fear Mistress Wendy has very poor communications skills, saying one thing, meaning yet another, and expecting us to read her mind on the subject and share the same narrow world-view. I quite sincerely read Wendy's outrage as being expressed over the experience of her friend (which was quite understandable) rather than offense that the subject had been mentioned and discussed at all.

So, I fear I am as much responsible for this as you, or more, and you got a good portion of the wrath that was really directed at me. For which I am sorry.

No need to apologise. I had an idea what I might be in for should I contradict her over any subject whatsoever, the chief being my disapproval of the bullying and reporting of novice writers. A conflict between me and Wendy was inevitable.
randy_o
Oct. 6th, 2007 10:41 pm (UTC)
Futility
Wendwriter has been friended. However, she may not notice, as I find I am also blocked from posting in her Live Journal. You would think I had said something horribly obscene or threatening to her to garner this response. IgnobleBard read the first post of my final two-part reply to her, and he can vouch that I did not.

I would post anonymously to inform her she has been friended, but I fear to be reported to Six-Apart for 'harrassment.'

So there it ends. I think this incident proves that bullies are cowards at heart. Wendwriter can speak cruelly to young writers in their review sections, make mock of them in her own forum and at The Fireplace, and she can write vicious statements in her own Live Journal abut the two of us without turning a hair. But when someone stands up to her, she shuts off discourse.
crowdaughter
Oct. 6th, 2007 10:52 pm (UTC)
Re: Futility
So there it ends. I think this incident proves that bullies are cowards at heart. Wendwriter can speak cruelly to young writers in their review sections, make mock of them in her own forum and at The Fireplace, and she can write vicious statements in her own Live Journal abut the two of us without turning a hair. But when someone stands up to her, she shuts off discourse.But when someone stands up to her, she shuts off discourse.

And to think that I virtually sat on my hands all week not to point out exactly those things to her in crystal clear detail because I was still thinking that we had a debate going on and was falling for her apologetic steps and comments... Benefit of the doubt, my aunt fanny! Oh, well. I think I just tried too hard to restrain myself from seriously flying off the handle, in this, because when I do, I am perfectly capable of 'pulling a Wendy' myself. And the sight is not a pretty one to see, which is why I try to avoid doing it.

Mostly.

Aislynn
randy_o
Oct. 6th, 2007 11:20 pm (UTC)
LOL
And to think that I virtually sat on my hands all week not to point out exactly those things to her in crystal clear detail because I was still thinking that we had a debate going on and was falling for her apologetic steps and comments...

And I strove mightily not to respond with my initial reaction to her setting us up our own Separate But Equal forum, The X-Box, where matters 'below the belt' might be discussed with impunity, which was, "Oh, goody! Do I get to have my own pink triangle for an avatar?"
crowdaughter
Oct. 6th, 2007 11:44 pm (UTC)
Re: LOL
"Oh, goody! Do I get to have my own pink triangle for an avatar?"

*shudders* now that was decidedly not politically correct, although probably fitting. But you know, I might have competed you for that one. Or would there have been another for darkfic writers?

But I thought she did not really mean it that way, and never realized the implications. I was more amused that her new forum is, of course, completely against the TOS - but then, I am the least likely to report her for it.

On the other hand, what *did* irritate me was that she apologized to me for her comments... by telling me she thought I was so immersed in my darkfic writing that compassion did not get a look in anymore; then after I addressed that, telling her there was a difference between writing darkfic and condoning what happens in such stories, she came up with her invitation to the new forum because she had gathered from my response that it made me uncomfortable to not discuss adult stuff all the time. Er, I still have trouble to follow how she arrived at that conclusion. But no matter.

I am seriously contemplating to turn "Aislynn 'Rose' Crowdaughter with the brutal-insensitivity personality disorder" into a new signature. Although it is probably not funny enough for that.

crowdaughter
Oct. 6th, 2007 10:21 pm (UTC)
Added for the sake of completeion
Repost to edit, because I forgot some of the html-tags. So, again:

Following your invitation to add my "Rape is Murder of the Soul comment" here:




I personally believe that the PC movement has been subverted in some ways to become a sort of covert expression of racist and discriminatory attitudes.

Have I started a debate here?



Um. maybe. I agree, actually, that "PC" can be taken too far and become an excuse for patronizing and discriminating behavior while the true problems (the underlying discriminating attitudes and disparities in society) continue like before. Still, you are somewhat generalizing, here, so much that I find myself actually sitting on my hands at the moment to avoid flying off the handle. The problem is, giving up PC all together can easily end in simply returning to the old discriminating attitudes and behaviors, and declaring them okay again. Which is certainly nothing I would condone, either.

However, there is a difference between writing a story in which you are exploring the human psyche in relation to a particular incident, and simply using a traumatic incident gratuitously to drum up publicity. I HATE exploitation, and am very protective of my friends. Now I don't run around trying to ban stuff I think might offend them, but if I see someone writing stuff in which the truth is not being told about such an incident, I get annoyed, because I know what the truth is.


Um, agreed... to a point. Rape is nothing to go easy about. Rape, true rape, is murder of the soul, and is used in Real Life all too often either to give the rapist some feelings of power, or even in war to hurt and destroy the morals of the other side (and the self-esteem and souls of the raped women). There is nothing 'good' about it. BUT. There are people who get excited at roleplaying rape with their partners (the difference, a very important difference, is that is a roleplay of consenting partners, an so not real rape). There are dysfunctional relationships where the borders between rape and consent get blurred. There are situations where a consensual situation can go off into a non consensual one.

So, my problem with your statement is: who decides, then, if the writer who explores such a topic, does it "the right way"? When, in your opinion, starts exploitation? I agree completely that such a topic is very sensitive stuff. So is cutting, or multiple personality syndrome, or even depression. Still, while I would probably come down like a ton of bricks on a writer who simply used the old cliche of "Girl gets raped and finds she like it and falls in love with her rapist", I would rather hesitate to go around and state my version of the one, sole truth about how to write about such a topic. There are too many shades of grey in the area for that.

Aislynn (who is aware that she has leaned herself very far out of the window here. Maybe I should look for a parachute?)
#70 Sep 23rd, 2:44pm . Edited Sep 23rd, 2:48pm Reply »




Wendy's bold sentence was emphasized now and by me.

My post was replying to the above quotes first post of Wendy replying to Thranduil. The postings of the forum directly before my post included a discussion between the Sugarfaiirie and Wendy about sensitive issues in fanfic at the example of the Holocaust.

To be continued next comment...
crowdaughter
Oct. 6th, 2007 10:41 pm (UTC)
Re: Added for the sake of completeion, Part II
Directly following my comment above, Wendy replied:




Aislynn,

I find that I agree with everything you said here, particularly
Um. maybe. I agree, actually, that "PC" can be taken too far and become an excuse for patronizing and discriminating behavior while the true problems (the underlying discriminating attitudes and disparities in society) continue like before. Still, you are somewhat generalizing, here, so much that I find myself actually sitting on my hands at the moment to avoid flying off the handle. The problem is, giving up PC all together can easily end in simply returning to the old discriminating attitudes and behaviors, and declaring them okay again. Which is certainly nothing I would condone, either.


The key word here is "sensitive." Roleplay is one thing, and that's okay as long as you are not offending people, but

Still, while I would probably come down like a ton of bricks on a writer who simply used the old cliche of "Girl gets raped and finds she like it and falls in love with her rapist"


IS offensive. There is no way out of that one. Now

I would rather hesitate to go around and state my version of the one, sole truth about how to write about such a topic. There are too many shades of grey in the area for that.


is something I thought we already agree on. There are shades of grey and there is no One True reaction. I've said that twice now, haven't I? I thought I had...
#71 Sep 23rd, 2:50pm . Edited Sep 23rd, 2:51pm




Then followed a discussion between Sugarfairie and Wendy about an offensive World-War II fic in which post-war-trauma had been offensively dealt with one of the characters telling another "to snap out of it", which led Wendy to her comment, if someone had said to her friend last night to snap out of it, the person would have went away in an ambulance, courtesy by her.

And that was the close of that debate, for afterwards there was some exchange about some 'sporkworthy' fics, Redneck bashed all kind of pairings, among them slash, I called him out on it, Wendy came to my aid - nothing that would have let me to believe that she was inwardly fuming. Nor did she say "the debate of the previous night has gone too far, I'm going to edit it now" - which everybody would have accepted since that is her right.

She flew off the handle only after you came back and made your second post, quoted above. The reaction had me baffled, since it came absolutely unexpected to me after the rather friendly exchange directly before. So did her seething comment on her live journal two days later, which you quoted here.

Aislynn (shutting up now)

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